If you kill the queen with boric acid - where do the forager ants go after that?

[Peter]

Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to kill the
queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill them when you see
them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food with a slow-acting
poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the chicken meat bait).

The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their bodies
and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and her pupae.

But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for the
remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their lives?

Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the queen?

[T]

Post by Peter
Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to kill the
queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill them when you see
them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food with a slow-acting
poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the chicken meat bait).
The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their bodies
and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and her pupae.
But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for the
remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their lives?
Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the queen?

Mix the boric acid with a bit of cheap honey and water.
They will all eat it and die. But not right away.
Enough time will have passed for them to feed it
to the queen.

Any of the worked it missed should just die off
after that.

I wiped out the ants farming aphids in my garden
that way. Got the whole bunch.

And with no ants to protect them, the aphids were
a good lunch for lady bugs.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 03:18:20 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter
Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to kill the
queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill them when you see
them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food with a slow-acting
poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the chicken meat bait).
The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their bodies
and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and her pupae.
But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for the
remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their lives?

I think they hang around in bars and casinos, telling each antette they
meet that since the queen is dead, they will make her a queen, when all
they really want is some royal jelly .

Post by Peter
Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the queen?

[songbird]

Post by Peter
Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to kill the
queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill them when you see
them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food with a slow-acting
poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the chicken meat bait).

the worker ants do not usually live very long when
compared to the queen. it depends upon which ant
caste you are examining.

Post by Peter
The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their bodies
and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and her pupae.
But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for the
remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their lives?
Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the queen?

it depends upon the ant species, some are more persistent
and can recover from the death of a queen and others will
not.

but for most ant species they might be around for a while
but eventually they'll die off as the colony disintegrates.
remember that for most ants the queen is what drives the
hive and when she's gone it will not persist too long. if
there is no young to feed the foragers will not work as hard
and there won't be replacements for those who are lost so
the colony will implode. the colony may also be raided by
other ants or animals.


songbird

[Peter]

songbird wrote on 25.10.2023 05:18

Post by songbird
the worker ants do not usually live very long when
compared to the queen. it depends upon which ant
caste you are examining.

Thank you for trying to help answer the question from me today.

Here are some images of the bait traps I made with chicken meat.
[Loading Image...]
Once that worked for about 3 days on one colony, I moved it to another.
[Loading Image...]

I can tell you understand because I didn't mention that the queen is the
longest lived of the casts while the lower-class female workers don't live
as long - but you seem to have known that all along.

I think I killed off the queen (see photo) in two different nests with the
same bait (sequentially placed, of course), where I sprinkled boric acid on
the bait and along the trail to the holes in the wall where they eminated.

They took only hours to swarm the bait but disappeared after about 3 days.

I'm just wondering what happens to the ants that didn't eat the bait as
that can't be the only foraging party that the queen sent out that day.

Post by songbird

Post by Peter
The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their bodies
and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and her pupae.
But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for the
remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their lives?
Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the queen?

it depends upon the ant species, some are more persistent
and can recover from the death of a queen and others will
not.

Ah. These are the little tiny ants that are in California.
I don't know what species they are though.

Post by songbird
but for most ant species they might be around for a while
but eventually they'll die off as the colony disintegrates.
remember that for most ants the queen is what drives the
hive and when she's gone it will not persist too long. if
there is no young to feed the foragers will not work as hard
and there won't be replacements for those who are lost so
the colony will implode. the colony may also be raided by
other ants or animals.

I guess that means that one colony will likely fall apart after the queen
is poisoned by the boric acid - and the workers will lose interest in the
nest or be conquered by another species.

[songbird]

Peter wrote:
...

Post by Peter
I guess that means that one colony will likely fall apart after the queen
is poisoned by the boric acid - and the workers will lose interest in the
nest or be conquered by another species.

yes.

also think about just general mass and how things tend to
go in life. the smaller something is that is alive the
faster it tends to live and then dies.

in ant species i think that is also appropriate for a
generality even if it doesn't apply 100%. so the tiny
ants will probably only last a short while.

since you seem to have an interest in ants check out
the book The Ants from Holldobler and Wilson and by
check out i mean request it through your local library.
it's big, it's heavy, it's got a ton of information.
it will help you id different species.


songbird

[Peter]

Post by songbird
also think about just general mass and how things tend to
go in life. the smaller something is that is alive the
faster it tends to live and then dies.
in ant species i think that is also appropriate for a
generality even if it doesn't apply 100%. so the tiny
ants will probably only last a short while.

The main question, given ants live as long as your pets do, is what stops
the foragers from foraging & what eventually kills them off over time.

Post by songbird
since you seem to have an interest in ants check out
the book The Ants from Holldobler and Wilson and by
check out i mean request it through your local library.
it's big, it's heavy, it's got a ton of information.
it will help you id different species.

On page 291 when Holldobler & Wilson talk about the stages of colony
growth, it's instructive when they say "colonies of all known ant species
are perennial. Like flowering plants, they issue a crop of seeds, then
return to an interval of purely vegetative (i.e., worker) growth."

On page 629 Wilson describes how when he reduced a population of 10,000
workers to only 236 in number, he determined the four year old colony
reverted to a size-frequency distribution of a young colony instead.

This adaptive demography implies that we must kill off the queen and not
just the foraging ants, but unfortunately the words "boric acid" don't
occur anywhere in the text, nor does "borax" for that endeavor.

In a hint to what happens after the queen is killed, on page 369 they
discuss how dangerous the altruistic life is of foragers, averaging about
14 days for the Idaho harvester Pogonomyrmex owyheei and an average of 0.06
deaths per worker foraging hour for the California harvester Pogonomyrmex
californicus simply due to the inherent dangers of conflict & predation.

However, on page 1239 they discuss how some ant species (such as granivores
in Death Valley) store food to last them a dozen years of drought, which
implies we might not get the queen with a single boric acid ant bait trap
after all.

This is backed up on page 465 which says the laying queen can obtain
nutrients from salivary secretions of her own larvae.

It seems that it may not be a sure bet to lay out a single trap to kill the
queen as a result of that information but if the queen is killed off, then
no more workers will be produced for that colony, where it seems the
foragers' normal lifespan will likely be limited more by the dangers of
predators and other colonies as you mentioned earlier in this thread than
by the fact they can live as long as your typical pet's natural lifespan.

[songbird]

Peter wrote:
...

Post by Peter
The main question, given ants live as long as your pets do, is what stops
the foragers from foraging & what eventually kills them off over time.

if you have gotten enough poison into a colony that you've
managed to kill off the queen then the remaining ants are
also likely to be poisoned.


...

Post by Peter
On page 291 when Holldobler & Wilson talk about the stages of colony
growth, it's instructive when they say "colonies of all known ant species
are perennial. Like flowering plants, they issue a crop of seeds, then
return to an interval of purely vegetative (i.e., worker) growth."

yes, i've noticed that. i would not see them for a month
and then a new crop of workers would start foraging and i
would take them out as much as i could. then when i don't
see them for a while i think the colony was dead but it
wasn't. this time i think i finally got it.

Post by Peter
On page 629 Wilson describes how when he reduced a population of 10,000
workers to only 236 in number, he determined the four year old colony
reverted to a size-frequency distribution of a young colony instead.
This adaptive demography implies that we must kill off the queen and not
just the foraging ants, but unfortunately the words "boric acid" don't
occur anywhere in the text, nor does "borax" for that endeavor.

at different stages the colony may also have a preference
for what it will take as bait. when raising a lot of young
they may want more protein and fats and other times more
sugars and liquids.

Post by Peter
In a hint to what happens after the queen is killed, on page 369 they
discuss how dangerous the altruistic life is of foragers, averaging about
14 days for the Idaho harvester Pogonomyrmex owyheei and an average of 0.06
deaths per worker foraging hour for the California harvester Pogonomyrmex
californicus simply due to the inherent dangers of conflict & predation.
However, on page 1239 they discuss how some ant species (such as granivores
in Death Valley) store food to last them a dozen years of drought, which
implies we might not get the queen with a single boric acid ant bait trap
after all.
This is backed up on page 465 which says the laying queen can obtain
nutrients from salivary secretions of her own larvae.
It seems that it may not be a sure bet to lay out a single trap to kill the
queen as a result of that information but if the queen is killed off, then
no more workers will be produced for that colony, where it seems the
foragers' normal lifespan will likely be limited more by the dangers of
predators and other colonies as you mentioned earlier in this thread than
by the fact they can live as long as your typical pet's natural lifespan.

they're facinating creatures and very successful. the old
biblical saying about study their ways and be wise is still
very apt.


songbird

[Peter]

Post by songbird
at different stages the colony may also have a preference
for what it will take as bait. when raising a lot of young
they may want more protein and fats and other times more
sugars and liquids.

I believe you. You are astute as Wilson & Holldobler discussed at length
that the colony's food preferences changed under their testing sequences.

Post by songbird
they're facinating creatures and very successful. the old
biblical saying about study their ways and be wise is still
very apt.

I agree with you that we have to understand their nature as most people I
think just kill the workers which simply stimulates the queen to make more.

I'm still trying to figure out why the bait needs to be wet as I noticed
that ants have salivary glands outlined physiologically in that last text.

Also I'm trying to figure out the optimum ratio of boric acid, although I
note that many people use borax (which is essentially a diluted form).

[Frankie]

Post by Peter
I'm still trying to figure out why the bait needs to be wet as I noticed
that ants have salivary glands outlined physiologically in that last text.

The bait doesn't have to be wet unless you are trying to feed workers.
https://professionalpestmanager.com/pest-control-ants/research/how-do-ants-eat-solid-food/

"The mouthparts of adult ants do not allow them to chew and ingest solid
food. Indeed, their infrabuccal plate actually filters out solid particles
as they imbibe liquid. Of course, their mandibles allow them to cut up and
transport solid food, so they can easily take such food back to the nest.

These solid food particles, which are often high in protein, are required
by the larvae for growth and by the queen for egg laying. It is the larvae
that are key in processing the solid foods for the colony.

Previously it was thought that ant larvae would chew and ingest solid food
and then regurgitate the juices for consumption by workers and for
distribution to the queen and rest of the colony.

However, it has recently been established, at least in some species, that
the food is placed on the belly surfaces of the larvae, generally the older
larvae, for digestion externally.

The larvae spit out digestive enzymes onto the food and a few hours later
the workers return to imbibe the resulting liquid meal.

This liquified protein is then fed back to the larvae that did all the work
and is also passed on to other larvae and reproductives."

This says ants mostly eat carbs and proteins and fats, just like we do.
https://schoolofbugs.com/what-can-ants-eat/

This says adults can't eat solid food but bring the solids to the nest.
https://scifaqs.com/how-do-ants-eat/
The larvae chew up the food and regurgitate it for the adults to eat.

This says the foraging ants find food mostly by their acute sense of smell.
https://scifaqs.com/how-do-ants-find-food/
They can smell food fifteen feet away from them, much like dogs can.

This says the ants don't store food in the nest but in their stomach.
https://www.backyardpests.com/what-do-ants-do-with-food/
They have a social stomach (for sharing) and a personal stomach.

[songbird]

...

Post by Peter

Post by songbird
they're facinating creatures and very successful. the old
biblical saying about study their ways and be wise is still
very apt.

I agree with you that we have to understand their nature as most people I
think just kill the workers which simply stimulates the queen to make more.
I'm still trying to figure out why the bait needs to be wet as I noticed
that ants have salivary glands outlined physiologically in that last text.

for the smaller common ants i think the food the
foragers actually consume is liquid (nectar from flowers
and sometimes honeydew produced by aphids or other sucking
bugs). the meat and fats in the diet for the larvae is
what comes from bugs or perhaps small animals (and even
sometimes other ant colonies).

Post by Peter
Also I'm trying to figure out the optimum ratio of boric acid, although I
note that many people use borax (which is essentially a diluted form).

there's a lot of recipes available on-line. i've not had
very good luck with the carpenter ants i was trying to bait
into oblivion but the other smaller brown (a very common ant
here) took the same bait ok. and setting up a few bait
stations near their colonies would take them out after a
while. the problem we sometimes have is that there are
many raccoons around so they are always going for any bait
and chewing up some plastics to get at the baits.


songbird

[Peter]

Post by songbird

Post by Peter
I'm still trying to figure out why the bait needs to be wet as I noticed
that ants have salivary glands outlined physiologically in that last text.

for the smaller common ants i think the food the
foragers actually consume is liquid (nectar from flowers
and sometimes honeydew produced by aphids or other sucking
bugs).

Unfortunately, I found out the ants I have (Argentine ants) are almost
completely different from all other ants in almost every important way.

For example, queens are 10% of the colony and they forage just like the
workers do, but what's worse is the colony stems from a single queen
(out of Louisiana as it were) such that they don't fight with each other.

That makes their mega colony span from San Diego to San Francisco so there
is no way to eradicate the colony, which, depending on weather more than
anything else, will attack all houses in that area at the same times.

Unfortunately, killing a queen does nothing for multi-queen Argentine ants.

It can be done but it has to be done on a statewide level like they did on
the islands by dropping the poison bait beads from a hovering helicopter.

We're doomed.

[Frankie]

Post by Peter
I'm just wondering what happens to the ants that didn't eat the bait as
that can't be the only foraging party that the queen sent out that day.

The Internet is filled with contradictions.

Most references say you need 30 bait traps to make sure you get the queen.
https://www.completehomemaker.com/boric-acid-for-ants/

This says the boric acid can't be detected by the ants.
https://www.thebugexperts.com/expert-guide-how-to-kill-ants-with-boric-acid/
But then later in the same article it says sugar masks the bitterness of
the boric acid so the author can't keep his facts straight.

To explain further, first it says "What makes boric acid especially
effective is that ants cannot detect its presence, so they unknowingly
carry it back to their nest, inadvertently infecting the entire colony" and
then it says "The powdered sugar helps mask the bitterness of boric acid,
making the bait attractive to ants."

That article is contradictory.

The Internet is filled with contradictions as this says "too much boric
acid may cause the ants to detect the presence of the boric acid and they
simply will not feed on the bait."
https://www.orkin.com/pests/ants/boric-acid-and-ants

That article said boric acid is more effective than borax but more
dangerous to humans while the previous article said the opposite about
both.

Then you have others saying keep the bait as dry (not wet) as possible.
https://bugpursuits.com/how-to-use-boric-acid-to-kill-ants/
"It is important to keep this mixture as dry as possible, as moisture can
reduce its effectiveness."

While almost every article says boric acid shouldn't be consumed, this one
says "Look for food-grade boric acid, as it's safe for home use."
https://www.thebugexperts.com/expert-guide-how-to-kill-ants-with-boric-acid/

It could be that nobody knows what they're talking about.

[Frankie]

Post by Peter
Here are some images of the bait traps I made with chicken meat.

Those most likely are Argentine ants (Linepithema humile) says this.
https://ucanr.edu/sites/ccmg/files/103018.pdf

But it suggests you double check the species with this id chart.
https://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7411.html

If it is the Argentine ant, it's not like any other ant is.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/626385/argentine-ant-facts
"Each spring, just before mating season begins, worker ants go on a killing
rampage and assassinate 90 percent of their queens."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1420-9101.2001.00345.x

The Argentine ant arrived to the US in 1890 on ships before taking over.
https://baynature.org/article/a-pervasive-invasive-the-argentine-ant/

Linepithema humile colonies have more than one queen.
https://baynature.org/article/a-pervasive-invasive-the-argentine-ant/
"While most ant colonies support a single queen, Argentine ant nests have
many, and they reproduce at the same time."

Wikipedia says Argentine ants form a mega colony without antagonism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_ant
It says that mega colony extends from San Diego to San Francisco.

Wikipedia says "Argentine ant colonies almost invariably have many
reproductive queens, as many as eight for every 1,000 workers." which is
roughly about one queen for every 100 Argentine ant workers.

Wikipedia even says the queens forage with the workers
"When they invade a kitchen, it is not uncommon to see two or three queens
foraging along with the workers."

While they say there are so many queens you won't get them all, it says how
to kill them. "Borate-sucrose water baits are toxic to Argentine ants, when
the bait is 25% water, with 0.5-1.0% boric acid or borate salts"
https://www.urban.ucr.edu/docs/Argentine%20Ant/2004%20Klotz%20et%20al.%20In%20Search%20of%20the%20SweetSpot.pdf
https://urban.ucr.edu/docs/Argentine%20Ant/2000%20Klotz%20et%20al.%20Toxicity%20and%20Repellency%20of%20Borate-Sucrose%20.pdf

Some articles say Argentine ants have one queen for every 10 workers.
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ants-will-do-anything-for-sugar-but-not-this
And that the queens forage along with the worker ants.

[songbird]

songbird wrote:

as a ps i see that Wilson has another more recent book
on ants called Tales from the Ant World which looks to
be a more conversational and lighter book. so i've now
requested that from the library so i can have something
to read. i need a good book and this will likely do
quite well... :)


songbird

[Peter]

Post by songbird
i see that Wilson has another more recent book
on ants called Tales from the Ant World which looks to
be a more conversational and lighter book. so i've now
requested that from the library so i can have something
to read. i need a good book and this will likely do
quite well... :)

Thank you for that reference, where I like how he writes, saying ants havef
evolved over 150 million years to send their "little old ladies into
battle" and "males are little more than flying sperm missiles" and that he
considers ants to be the most warlike of all species "with colony pitted
against colony... Their clashes dwarfing that of Waterloo and Gettysburg."

I searched for the answer to my question in his book where he is focused
more on the most interesting species than the mundane, but he does say at
the beginning of chapter 18 "Because the [Matabele termite] queen lives on
average about ten years, and remains well protected and generously fed in
the mound nest, she may produce something like 100 million offspring in her
lifetime" which, if applicable to the California ants, shows us how futile
it is to kill the worker forager ants.

In chapter 25 Wilson discusses the leafcutter ant saying "The mother queen,
when inseminated by several males during the nuptial flights, receives 200
to 300 million sperm cells. These she stores in her spermatheca. She pays
out sperm cells one by one from the spermatheca during her lifetime of ten
to fifteen years. In this time, she gives birth to as many as 150 million
to 200 million workers..." again showing the futility of killing the
workers one by one.

But I didn't see explicitly the answer to the question, which is probably
that the colony will disperse, but the workers will remain alive for years.

[songbird]

Peter wrote:
...

Post by Peter
But I didn't see explicitly the answer to the question, which is probably
that the colony will disperse, but the workers will remain alive for years.

if you can kill off the workers early when a colony is
first getting going you can take it out, but you have to
be pretty dilligent. the queen can feed herself eggs
for a while, but if you can keep the foragers from being
able to bring back water they will have a much harder
time of it.

we have carpenter ants here which tried to start a
colony in the wall and door of a shed. for years i was
trying to bait it and killing off as many foragers as i
could whenever i saw them. this past summer even with
a long dry heat spell with almost no rains for many
weeks and high temperatures i could still not get rid
of the colony but i finally dug out the rotting part of
the door sill and replaced it and caulked it all back
together and finally i think i got the boogers out of
there. that colony had been limping along for years.

sealing up any gaps they can exploit it helpful if
you seem to have a lot of ants in the house. find the
gaps and get them caulked or sealed up somehow.

another time we had an ant colony get going in the
ceiling of all places and it was quite a ways from
any food or water but it was able to get established
and have many ants before we finally baited it and they
all got killed off. within a few weeks they were gone
completely. if you've successfully gotten enough bait
into their food supply they store in the nest (in other
ants) then as those ants dole it out that will kill
any workers.


songbird

[Frankie]

Post by songbird
if you can kill off the workers early when a colony is
first getting going you can take it out, but you have to
be pretty dilligent. the queen can feed herself eggs
for a while, but if you can keep the foragers from being
able to bring back water they will have a much harder
time of it.

Found this https://sciencing.com/happens-queen-ant-dies-6162758.html
What happens when the queen ant dies?
"When the queen ant dies, no more ants will be born, so the colony will die
off. The death of the colony will not be immediate, but will slowly die off
over time as no new members will be added."

This says the workers die of a confused hunger but they can last years.
https://misfitanimals.com/ants/what-happens-when-a-queen-ant-dies/

But this says the workers "will continue to act as if the colony is still
functioning normally but without a queen" and slowly die off on their own.
https://www.ecoguardpestmanagement.com/pest-resources/what-happens-when-the-queen-ant-dies
"Without the queen, there won't be any changes to the directives given to
the worker ants so they will just continue to collect food."

This explains the adults can't eat solids and the larvae only eat solids.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/558090/why-do-ants-die-after-queen-dies

"They come out to get food and bring it back to the nest, then they chew it
up and place it on their larvae. Larvae will swallow and digest the food
for them. Especially protein. Larvae secrete nutrient-rich liquids back to
the ants, which is their main source of amino acids and fatty acids.

What happens when queens die? No eggs, hence no larvae.

What happens when there are no larvae? Bad nutrition, ultimately no reason
for the nest. Ants gradually get disorganized, and after a few weeks they
die."

[badgolferman]

Post by Peter
Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to
kill the queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill
them when you see them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food
with a slow-acting poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the
chicken meat bait).
The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their
bodies and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and
her pupae.
But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for
the remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their
lives?
Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the queen?

I don't know the answer to your question. All I know is when I see
ants in the house I put out a few Terro liquid ant baits and after they
empty those I don't see them again until next year.

[Frankie]

Post by badgolferman
I don't know the answer to your question. All I know is when I see
ants in the house I put out a few Terro liquid ant baits and after they
empty those I don't see them again until next year.

This stuff? https://www.thespruce.com/terro-liquid-ant-baits-review-4686412

"The idea is to kill the ants slowly so that they have time to deliver the
serum to the rest of the nest, including the queen, and exterminate the
remaining ants."

They say "For effective elimination, it is important to use multiple ant
baits simultaneously" but they don't say why that would be the case.

The active ingredient is sodium tetraborate decahydrate (borax).